Am I missing something? (Edison Bipolar C-frame)

[Russ Huber]

Once again in 1899 the 9" model was improved increasing RPM by reducing friction related issues.  "Elimination of all unnecessary friction in the moving parts."

Edited September 20, 2024 by Russ Huber

[Michael Rathberger]

What's a "fan hour?" "Will run fan for 170 fan hours..."

 

Dennis,I don't own an Edison I just knew they used ball bearings at some point. Kim answered the question anyway.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Michael Rathberger

[Russ Huber]

The 1898 model seen here (validated 1898 based on 98 introduction Pacinotti ring armature) still sport the oil slingers. 

[Russ Huber]

99 uses same 98 image, so not to be trusted.

[Russ Huber]

So, what did they eliminate or improve upon in 99 to reduce friction?  No oil slinger seen in 01 image.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Russ Huber

[Russ Huber]

1892-96 manufacture. 

Very Rare Circa 1898 Thomas Edison 6 Blade Balloon Guard Battery Fan - Antique Fan Supply Co (antiquefanparts.com)

[Dennis Back]

My sincere thanks to Russ posting all the great information about the oil slingers and the evolution of the C-frame.  I realize the the slingers are only a PART of the evolution story, but a valuable part.  I am truly glad to have joined the Fan Forum and AFCA! 

[Russ Huber]

20 minutes ago, Dennis Back said:

My sincere thanks to Russ posting all the great information about the oil slingers and the evolution of the C-frame. 

I appreciate that very much, and your sincerity, Dennis. There is too much to put in a book, and too small a crowd to appreciate all the work that would go into that book. The clock is ticking and those that want to learn, now is the time to pay attention, and don't take this website for granted. Those that take it and run with it, you're a dime a dozen.

[Russ Huber]

The oil slinger "appears" to have been abolished in 99. Take notice to improvements in 1900.

[Dennis Back]

1 hour ago, Russ Huber said:

I appreciate that very much, and your sincerity, Dennis. There is too much to put in a book, and too small a crowd to appreciate all the work that would go into that book. The clock is ticking and those that want to learn, now is the time to pay attention, and don't take this website for granted. Those that take it and run with it, you're a dime a dozen.

You mention a book.  I have actually started my own book of sorts on the Edison C-frame.  I’ve been printing out photos and comments from this and other threads. A lot of information has been brought forward here, with more to come, I’m sure. Printing and having it in front of me is easier than jumping and scrolling from one thread to another for info.  

[Russ Huber]

1 hour ago, Dennis Back said:

You mention a book.  I have actually started my own book of sorts on the Edison C-frame.  I’ve been printing out photos and comments from this and other threads. A lot of information has been brought forward here, with more to come, I’m sure. Printing and having it in front of me is easier than jumping and scrolling from one thread to another for info.  

Sounds like a plan, Dennis! A book on Edison C-frame battery fans.  When I was referring to a book, I was referring to a book with start to finish details about "ALL" fan motor manufacturers. That's a lot of details, and a lot of pages in a book. 🙂

[George Durbin]

This is why you join the AFCA! Where else can you get this kind of info for your fans?  NOWHERE!!

GEO...

[Dennis Back]

44 minutes ago, George Durbin said:

This is why you join the AFCA! Where else can you get this kind of info for your fans?  NOWHERE!!

GEO...

Well....if you REALLY want to know my first  reason for joining the club....it was because I wanted to be able to EDIT FORUM POSTS... because only members can edit posts.  😛

Edited September 21, 2024 by Dennis Back

[George Durbin]

35 minutes ago, Dennis Back said:

Well....if you REALLY want to know my first  reason for joining the club....it was because I wanted to be able to EDIT FORUM POSTS... because only members can edit posts.  😛

Well... That's another reason! 😅🤣😂

[Russ Huber]

So, Dennis, 

Based on what has been posted in this post can you date your fan? Your Edison example can actually be dated within a 2-year period, if not one specific year. 

Not trying to be rude or embarrass you. Your fan unlike so many other Edison examples have clues to date it within a 2-year period. Take a shot at it. 🙂

[Dennis Back]

2 hours ago, Russ Huber said:

So, Dennis, 

Based on what has been posted in this post can you date your fan? Your Edison example can actually be dated within a 2-year period, if not one specific year. 

Not trying to be rude or embarrass you. Your fan unlike so many other Edison examples have clues to date it within a 2-year period. Take a shot at it. 🙂

Russ, I'll give it a shot. 

I would also like to reintroduce 3 photos of a Presentation at AFCA FanFair Oct. 4,2002 compiled by Bill Samak.

The posts were originally made by Steve Stephens March 7, 2021.  Jim Roadt was nice enough to message me with a link for this post. 

 

Three photos below show a progression of the Edison fan.

 

According to the pg 3 photo in the first full paragraph, it is stated:

 

"1896 or 1898 started making 12 pole pacinotti (sic) ring motors--

This initially was the long shaft model with new ball bearing--

It had a nickel plated motor tag without a serial number and initially some were sold with a 6 wing blade and a basket cage....Around this time they started putting the Thomas Edison signature on the fan"

 

I have all of the above except the balloon cage. My cage, the square cage, although it looks like an original, is probably the wrong cage for my fan.

 

My fan has the 12 pole Pacinotti, the long shaft with ball bearings, the nickel, no serial number name plate, and the Edison signature on the right side of the fan (later fans had the signatures on the left side).

 

All of the above and MORE can be seen below.

 

Russ' post of the picture from Electrical Age April 16, 1898 states that in the Spring of 1897 the new Pancinnoti was designed. 

 

Russ also posted a clip of the above statement again in another post later and enlarged it.  HINT HINT HINT?? Ya think?

 

Putting Bill Samek's presentation along with Russ' post, I feel pretty confident in saying my fan was manufactured in 1897.

 

Now Russ, you wanted a two year span, so, if you insist 😁, I'll make it 1897-8.  If this is wrong....please correct me, but remember. I was asked to guess.   🙂 

 

Again, thank you Russ for taking the time to help me and thanks to ALL THE OTHERS that posted in this thread.  Anyone who finds additional information, by all means, keep posting.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by Dennis Back

[Russ Huber]

Edison 9" battery fan models dating 1897-1900. Changes and modifications to the 9" model were with intention to increase fan motor efficiency, RPM, and battery life. My focus is totally based on dated electrical trade documentation. Tags and detailing are irrelevant to me to the dated changes documented and implemented. 

Spring of 1897 the Pacinotti ring Gramme armature was implemented to take the place of the 6-pole armature used from 1892-96. This increased fan motor efficiency and RPM.

Starting for the 1898 season ball bearings were implemented. Once again fan motor efficiency was increased for additional RPM and battery life. Note that 1898 documentation image supports the 9" model with NEW Pacinotti ring armature and oil slings. The oil sling elimination date is what is in question. Were they in fact using them in 1898? I can't prove either/or as of yet.

1899 electrical trade once again announces IMPROVEMENT to the 9" model increasing RPM and decreasing friction to moving parts. SPRING BRUSH HOLDERS IMPLEMENTED?? 

1900 electrical trade announces improvement once again tapping the field magnet winding for speed regulation. SPRING BRUSH HOLDERS ARE clearly stated in use in 1900.

YOUR FAN WOULD DATE 1898-99.

 

[Russ Huber]

Edited September 21, 2024 by Russ Huber

[Dennis Back]

YOUR FAN WOULD DATE 1898-99.

===========================

Excellent documentation, Russ, basing it solely on the American Electrician. Thank you!

I have one more question.  I could not find any documentation on Charles Lieb, who from Bill Samek's 2002 presentation, manufactured all the Edison fans.  Do you have anything on Lieb and his involvement?

BTW....Rene Rondau said to say "Hello."  I've been in contact with him about this fan for the past couple of weeks.  My friendship with Rene goes back at least 40 years, as we are both phonograph/Edison collectors.  I've forwarded this thread to him.

EDIT—- 

FWIW—after reading this thread, Rene said, “I'm inclined to go with 1898 since that's when the Edison signature went into general use, and also when the ball bearings started.”

He could not post this himself as he said the forum is set up so that non members could start and reply to started threads, but could not reply to threads started by someone else. 

Edited September 21, 2024 by Dennis Back

[Russ Huber]

The information gained here on page 1 and 2 of this thread regarding the improvements made on the 9" Edison battery fan 1897-1900 were gained through the 1898 Electrical Age, the latter gained through the American Electrician.

Charles Lieb is best known with his association with the Lieb Machine Works of NY.  I see the 1892 introduction of the Edison battery fan manufactured by the Edison Manufacturing Company of NY. What I have failed to find in the books so far is the connection between Charles Lieb, the Edison Manufacturing Company, and the Edison battery fan.

I would say the go to guy for this information would be Steve Rockwell.

[Russ Huber]

BTW.....The 1898 9" Edison battery fan after gaining the Pacinotti ring armature in 97 and ball bearings in 98 was evaluated as 70% more efficient as a battery sucker over the 1892-96 models. 🙂

I also recall in an electrical trade article I can't relocate at the time the Edison battery fan frame compared to a Charles Van Depoele design.

[Russ Huber]

Electrical Review - Volume 16

books.google.com › books

 

1890

Found inside

Charles Lieb , consulting engineer of the Edison Company

The 91 Lieb fan motor seen in the image below was manufactured FOR THE EDISON COMPANY as stated in the 91 article below. Nothing so far to connect Lieb to the Edison 9" battery fan introduced in 92.

Edited September 22, 2024 by Russ Huber

[Dennis Back]

According to the Rutgers University Thomas A. Edison Papers......

Edison Manufacturing Company

This company was organized in December 1889 as Edison's personal business and was incorporated in New Jersey on May 5, 1900. Originally formed to manufacture and market the Edison-Lalande primary battery, the company manufactured and sold batteries for use with telegraph, phonoplex, and telephone systems, as well as for phonographs, dental equipment, medical instruments, and other machinery. It also produced kinetoscope films, kinetoscopes, wax for phonograph cylinders, x-ray equipment, medical instruments, and electric fans. The company had a factory at Silver Lake (later named Bloomfield), New Jersey, a sales office in New York City, and agencies abroad. In 1905 its motion picture operations were moved from Manhattan to a studio in the Bronx. The company's assets and property rights were assigned to Thomas A. Edison, Inc., in February 1911. Although not an operating company after that date, it maintained a legal existence as the holder of copyrights on all the motion pictures produced before 1911. It was dissolved on November 9, 1926.

Edited September 22, 2024 by Dennis Back

[Dennis Back]

3 minutes ago, Dennis Back said:

According to the Rutgers University Thomas A. Edison Papers......

Edison Manufacturing Company

This company was organized in December 1889 as Edison's personal business and was incorporated in New Jersey on May 5, 1900. Originally formed to manufacture and market the Edison-Lalande primary battery, the company manufactured and sold batteries for use with telegraph, phonoplex, and telephone systems, as well as for phonographs, dental equipment, medical instruments, and other machinery. It also produced kinetoscope films, kinetoscopes, wax for phonograph cylinders, x-ray equipment, medical instruments, and electric fans. The company had a factory at Silver Lake (later named Bloomfield), New Jersey, a sales office in New York City, and agencies abroad. In 1905 its motion picture operations were moved from Manhattan to a studio in the Bronx. The company's assets and property rights were assigned to Thomas A. Edison, Inc., in February 1911. Although not an operating company after that date, it maintained a legal existence as the holder of copyrights on all the motion pictures produced before 1911. It was dissolved on November 9, 1926.

The Thomas A. Edison Papers Project, a research center at Rutgers School of Arts and Sciences, is one of the most ambitious editing projects ever undertaken by an American university. For decades, the 5 million pages of documents that chronicle the extraordinary life and achievements of Thomas Alva Edison remained hidden and inaccessible to members of the general public. Since the massive project began in 1978, a team of editors/scholars has been turning this incomparable trove of Edisonia into a premier educational and research resource.

[Russ Huber]

1499091478482410946-00394035 (storage.googleapis.com)

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by Russ Huber