Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 Is there a write up anywhere on making S wires? Don’t see it in the restoration & repair how to section. I thought about making a wooden jig of sorts. Something like this. Is this even remotely how you guys do it? What’s a better way? Have a few early Emerson brass cages I need to replace a few wires on. Also…bought this 8ga brass on Amazon (one on right. Let tthree are red brass so I might just practice with those or maybe play with brass ager in them). I think it’s gonna work decent. Although it says it’s got an anti tarnish coating on it so I’m not sure about that. But the size is way closer than the 1/8” I bought at a hardware store. Thanks. Quote
Mark Olson Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 I think your jig may work, but it depends on how springy the brass is. If it is dead soft, or can be annealed to be, then the jig should work fine. If, however, the brass is springy, I think that you will find that it will be required to over-bend the rod to have it relax to the shape you need. The few that I have made, I just hand bent them using an original as a gauge. Pipe, or other round objects of appropriate diameter make good bending mandrels. Quote
Nicholas Denney Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 Wire bending jigs or dies need to fully capture the wire to bend it as desired. It will be difficult to produced the desired results with a straight-sided jig as you have pictured. Do you just plan to push the wire down into that form? That will be messy and frustrating. Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 45 minutes ago, Mark Olson said: I think your jig may work, but it depends on how springy the brass is. If it is dead soft, or can be annealed to be, then the jig should work fine. If, however, the brass is springy, I think that you will find that it will be required to over-bend the rod to have it relax to the shape you need. The few that I have made, I just hand bent them using an original as a gauge. Pipe, or other round objects of appropriate diameter make good bending mandrels. Thanks Mark. I think this brass is pretty soft. Actually was worried it may be too soft. But I think it’ll be fine. Definitley not too springy like the rod stuff I bought at a hardware store (1/8” and too thick!) Quote
Michael Rathberger Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 Marc, on April 1, 2018 Bill Dunlap did a writeup on fabricating cages. Probably the best reference although one of the European collectors also did a writeup earlier. You can find Bills writeup searching "cage fabrication" without the quotes and using the "all words" option in the search function. I'm not good enough on the phone to insert the link. 1 Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 27 minutes ago, Nicholas Denney said: Wire bending jigs or dies need to fully capture the wire to bend it as desired. It will be difficult to produced the desired results with a straight-sided jig as you have pictured. Do you just plan to push the wire down into that form? That will be messy and frustrating. Well….yeha not sure how I’ll do it. What do you mean “fully capture”? Quote
Bill Dunlap Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) Forming the "S" part of the spoke is the easy part. Any buck of the correct radius will work. The hard parts of spoke forming are the wraps, which in the case of the emerson cage, needs three. Two 360 wraps and one almost twice that. I would avoid anealing brass as it just makes limp as a noodle and won't provide any structural integrity. Finding the correct wire may also be challenging. Some folks will sell you 2.5mm wire (nominally .100) only to find that it measures out to be .093. You don't often find wire sizes appropriate for spokes in 360 brass, but if you do, avoid it. It's just going to snap as soon as you begin to form it. You are certainly shooting yourself in the foot if you use coiled wire to make your spokes. I use straight stock only. In order to make an entire cage, you'll have to fabricate some tooling. One for the wraps, and adjustable for different wire sizes and cage depths. One for forming the notch in the front ring. A ring roller to form the loops. I have never bothered to make a tool for the "S" curves, mainly because of the numerous variations out there, and because every time I make a cage, I never know if I'll ever make another. Also, forming a spoke is one thing. Threading it on an assembled cage is quite another. (it's my little secret how I do it.) Cheers, Bill Edited November 17, 2024 by Bill Dunlap 3 Quote
George Durbin Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 Yeah! What Bill said! That's why I buy my cages from him!! 😆 Geo... 3 2 Quote
Bill Dunlap Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) If I were to make a tool for forming "S" curves I would use the idea of a pegboard. Hundred of holes to chose from and bucks of different radii that can be placed wherever they provide the desired result. This would be relatively easy to fabricate from any durable material. So, first you would fix the wire in place, then wrap it around the first buck. Then insert the next buck an then form the next curve. The bucks need to be installed in order so that the wire can swing freely during the bending process. You will waste some stock finding the right combination of peg holes and buck radii. Cheers, Bill Edited November 17, 2024 by Bill Dunlap 1 Quote
Trevor Andersen Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 I just use one of these jigs mounted to a piece of plywood i clamp to my workbench. I use air dry clay and make a mold of the original s wire or my first wire if i dont have an original. Then i just eyeball it bending it and compare the curve to the mold Ive cut in half so i can test the curves on both sides before it is finished. I tried making wood and epoxy forms to clamp the shapes but if your brass is soft enough to fully form the curves of the press mold it will likely flatten the brass rod itself and deform it. 6 Quote
Bill Dunlap Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) Dang, someone beat me to it! After looking into this tool more closely, I've found that it is very lightweight and small. It might not hold up well to continued use. Edited November 17, 2024 by Bill Dunlap Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Michael Rathberger said: Marc, on April 1, 2018 Bill Dunlap did a writeup on fabricating cages. Probably the best reference although one of the European collectors also did a writeup earlier. You can find Bills writeup searching "cage fabrication" without the quotes and using the "all words" option in the search function. I'm not good enough on the phone to insert the link. edit…,yeah I didn’t find it. I have bad luck searching this forum. Great michael Thank you. I searched “making S wire” and didn’t get anything. Was using the wrong search term I guess. I’ll check it out. Would I search for that here on the forum or somewhere else on the site? Edited November 17, 2024 by Marc Sova Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 29 minutes ago, Trevor Andersen said: I just use one of these jigs mounted to a piece of plywood i clamp to my workbench. I use air dry clay and make a mold of the original s wire or my first wire if i dont have an original. Then i just eyeball it bending it and compare the curve to the mold Ive cut in half so i can test the curves on both sides before it is finished. I tried making wood and epoxy forms to clamp the shapes but if your brass is soft enough to fully form the curves of the press mold it will likely flatten the brass rod itself and deform it. Wow. Yeah I’ll look into this. After monkeying with the wood one I made, I can see how this would be better because you can kind of drop the pieces in in order as Bill mentioned. Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 2 hours ago, Bill Dunlap said: Forming the "S" part of the spoke is the easy part. Any buck of the correct radius will work. The hard parts of spoke forming are the wraps, which in the case of the emerson cage, needs three. Two 360 wraps and one almost twice that. I would avoid anealing brass as it just makes limp as a noodle and won't provide any structural integrity. Finding the correct wire may also be challenging. Some folks will sell you 2.5mm wire (nominally .100) only to find that it measures out to be .093. You don't often find wire sizes appropriate for spokes in 360 brass, but if you do, avoid it. It's just going to snap as soon as you begin to form it. You are certainly shooting yourself in the foot if you use coiled wire to make your spokes. I use straight stock only. In order to make an entire cage, you'll have to fabricate some tooling. One for the wraps, and adjustable for different wire sizes and cage depths. One for forming the notch in the front ring. A ring roller to form the loops. I have never bothered to make a tool for the "S" curves, mainly because of the numerous variations out there, and because every time I make a cage, I never know if I'll ever make another. Also, forming a spoke is one thing. Threading it on an assembled cage is quite another. (it's my little secret how I do it.) Cheers, Bill Thanks Bill. Made the jig and it worked ok but I def have to do some finessing by hand…yeah currently just trying to replace a couple spokes in-situ without dismantling the whole thing. And yeah I’m trying to wrap my head around how I’m gong to make the 360 wrap around the front ring and get it nice and snug enough. I made some threads on the end that fits into the lead badge and end…I plan on putting some jb weld in there and at least the threads will give it something to hold onto. I think if I make the 360 wrap while the JB weld is wet, I can twist the new wire enough to clear the rear ring. Quote
Roger Borg Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 3 hours ago, Marc Sova said: Thanks Bill. Made the jig and it worked ok but I def have to do some finessing by hand…yeah currently just trying to replace a couple spokes in-situ without dismantling the whole thing. And yeah I’m trying to wrap my head around how I’m gong to make the 360 wrap around the front ring and get it nice and snug enough. I made some threads on the end that fits into the lead badge and end…I plan on putting some jb weld in there and at least the threads will give it something to hold onto. I think if I make the 360 wrap while the JB weld is wet, I can twist the new wire enough to clear the rear ring. I do NOT speak from experience, as I've never done this, but I feel putting a block between back and front ring would be helpful to give you something to push against while wrapping the 270degrees. Take struts off so back ring is flush to table. HOWEVER, it almost feels as if it's better to wrap this front cage loop first, then the rear, and then hand bend the s once you know those harder parts are done. This is counter intuitive, but me thinks a better approach. Or not... Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 17, 2024 Author Posted November 17, 2024 28 minutes ago, Roger Borg said: I do NOT speak from experience, as I've never done this, but I feel putting a block between back and front ring would be helpful to give you something to push against while wrapping the 270degrees. Take struts off so back ring is flush to table. HOWEVER, it almost feels as if it's better to wrap this front cage loop first, then the rear, and then hand bend the s once you know those harder parts are done. This is counter intuitive, but me thinks a better approach. Or not... Oh yeah for sure do the front one first. I just did one and it came out ok. Quote
Bobby Gaines Posted November 22, 2024 Posted November 22, 2024 This is a jig I made, It is some what adjustable . 3 Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 22, 2024 Author Posted November 22, 2024 Wow interesting. So I never thought about remaking all the 360 loops. I guess in the case of making a cage from scratch, or replacing all the s wires, on can do that. Quote
Trevor Andersen Posted November 22, 2024 Posted November 22, 2024 9 hours ago, Marc Sova said: Wow interesting. So I never thought about remaking all the 360 loops. I guess in the case of making a cage from scratch, or replacing all the s wires, on can do that. I also use some wire bending pliers. I have flat pliers with no teeth and plastic guards on it to help crimp things and another pair of conical looping wire pliers to make the 360 loops. I made this cage from scratch for another member. My next challenge is to make one with the back mounting piece one continuous piece and not brazed onto the back ring as separate pieces. But that requires an annoying precision in bending and straight runs to get it to fit and keep the same dimensions. 2 Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 22, 2024 Author Posted November 22, 2024 3 hours ago, Trevor Andersen said: I also use some wire bending pliers. I have flat pliers with no teeth and plastic guards on it to help crimp things and another pair of conical looping wire pliers to make the 360 loops. I made this cage from scratch for another member. My next challenge is to make one with the back mounting piece one continuous piece and not brazed onto the back ring as separate pieces. But that requires an annoying precision in bending and straight runs to get it to fit and keep the same dimensions. Yeah…I seriously need some better pliers. Here’s what I used. Pretty please with it. The 10 gauge seems real close to the Emerson wire. Initially i bought 1/8th at a hardware store and it was too thick. Not sure that’s even the right stuff polish wise. Quote
Bill Dunlap Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 I'm probably going to fab up a jig for forming S wire curves. Most all S wires have two different radii and I think it's not just for aesthetics. With two different curves, you have an offset for the center between the two, and that allows a tool to be used in the exact center without the wire in the way. Excuse the blurry photo of my crude drawing. The jig below has two capture points for the ends of the spoke and these are allowed to slide back and forth while not being allowed to rotate. These will form the end bends, while the hand cranked tool is totally adjustable with different diameter bucks mounted in any number of holes for adjusting the distance between the bucks. So the idea is to form both curves and end bends all at once. Likely the factory had something similar and maybe even motorized or foot operated. I predict a significant waste of material getting the first one right. I may also be able to set the jig up using a correctly formed spoke. I'll try that first before wasting a lot of stock. Cheers, Bill 3 Quote
Trevor Andersen Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 3 hours ago, Marc Sova said: Yeah…I seriously need some better pliers. Here’s what I used. Pretty please with it. The 10 gauge seems real close to the Emerson wire. Initially i bought 1/8th at a hardware store and it was too thick. Not sure that’s even the right stuff polish wise. These are the kind Im talking about. Not these exact ones but these are what i use for fine tuning stuff and making loops. 1 Quote
Marc Sova Posted November 23, 2024 Author Posted November 23, 2024 8 hours ago, Bill Dunlap said: I'm probably going to fab up a jig for forming S wire curves. Most all S wires have two different radii and I think it's not just for aesthetics. With two different curves, you have an offset for the center between the two, and that allows a tool to be used in the exact center without the wire in the way. Excuse the blurry photo of my crude drawing. The jig below has two capture points for the ends of the spoke and these are allowed to slide back and forth while not being allowed to rotate. These will form the end bends, while the hand cranked tool is totally adjustable with different diameter bucks mounted in any number of holes for adjusting the distance between the bucks. So the idea is to form both curves and end bends all at once. Likely the factory had something similar and maybe even motorized or foot operated. I predict a significant waste of material getting the first one right. I may also be able to set the jig up using a correctly formed spoke. I'll try that first before wasting a lot of stock. Cheers, Bill Wow. Can’t wait to see that Bill. Please post if you get around to making it. Quote
Marc Sova Posted December 13, 2024 Author Posted December 13, 2024 So what type of brass do folks use for this???? 260? 360??? Ordered some rods from K&S Metals….its 260. Not sure what the “artistic wire” rolled stuff I’ve been using is (pic a few comments up). I like it… but I thought I’d try my hand making the S wires using straight stock instead Quote
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