First Restoration- 12" Robbins and Myers 5204, the blades would not turn

[Gerry Meeks]

This is my first fan restoration. It was recently acquired, and the blades would not turn by power or by hand. Decided it was a good fan to start with. I have dismantled it as far as I felt comfortable with and cleaned it with brake cleaner as well as carburetor cleaner. I will post photos for comment on condition of parts, what else I need to dismantle if anything, and advise on removing paint and repainting. I don't have access to sand blasting, painting or powder coating equipment. I can steel blast with a tumbler cleaner I use for spent brass rifle cartridges that I reload. But it won't handle the body or back cover. 

I read that I could reassemble the rotar and stator (correct terms?) and plug the fan in to see if the rotar turns, before going further with painting and reassembly. Is that advisable? 

Do the rotar and stator look too worn to continue working? 

Should I remove the stator and windings from the housing? Any advice on doing so?

This wiring from the base to the motor (head wiring?) looks reusable. But if it didn't, how would I replace it? That looks difficult to me. 

Any advice on resurfacing would be appreciated. I bought paint stripper and was going to brush it on and wipe it off, then spray paint it using cans of shake and spray paint. I can look for people in the area that apply powder coating or automotive paint, but that will likely cost more than the fan itself. 

Let me know if you are interested in see more photos. I don't know how many I can post, but I will start with few key photos. 

Thanks for helping a beginner. Gerry Meeks in Houston, TX

[Anthony Lindsey]

Looks like your well on your way.   Just be sure the oil drain galley is clear on both front and rear bearing.   Your one picture shows one and it appears to be clean.   

Headwire looks good to me.   Reuse it.   The main reason to remove the stator is to put a new headwire but if that one has no breaks then use it.

Rotor and stator look good

Paint looks pretty good too.   Try to clean the paint then wax it.   You will find it shines up nicely.

Do you have any Fiber washers?  You will need a couple on both the front and rear shaft of the rotor.

I use a wire wheel most of the time but there are several methods to remove old paint if you have to.

These old fans are well built.   Find an old crusty one that looks like it's done,   Take it apart,  clean,  lube,  some new wire if needed and bam....   runs like new.   (most of the time).

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Anthony Lindsey

[Anthony Lindsey]

And yes,  you can wire just the motor without the blade or gearbox and see if it runs.

[James Landry]

49 minutes ago, Gerry Meeks said:

This is my first fan restoration. It was recently acquired, and the blades would not turn by power or by hand. Decided it was a good fan to start with. I have dismantled it as far as I felt comfortable with and cleaned it with brake cleaner as well as carburetor cleaner. I will post photos for comment on condition of parts, what else I need to dismantle if anything, and advise on removing paint and repainting. I don't have access to sand blasting, painting or powder coating equipment. I can steel blast with a tumbler cleaner I use for spent brass rifle cartridges that I reload. But it won't handle the body or back cover. 

I read that I could reassemble the rotar and stator (correct terms?) and plug the fan in to see if the rotar turns, before going further with painting and reassembly. Is that advisable? 

Do the rotar and stator look too worn to continue working? 

Should I remove the stator and windings from the housing? Any advice on doing so?

This wiring from the base to the motor (head wiring?) looks reusable. But if it didn't, how would I replace it? That looks difficult to me. 

Any advice on resurfacing would be appreciated. I bought paint stripper and was going to brush it on and wipe it off, then spray paint it using cans of shake and spray paint. I can look for people in the area that apply powder coating or automotive paint, but that will likely cost more than the fan itself. 

Let me know if you are interested in see more photos. I don't know how many I can post, but I will start with few key photos. 

Thanks for helping a beginner. Gerry Meeks in Houston, TX

Excellent work so far! I also have my first R&M fan restore out on the bench in the garage, mine being a 17", and yours might be slightly older. Just be extra cautious with that head wire-don't flex or bend it at all. The headwire on mine looked to be in great condition, but upon closer inspection was frayed just where it went through the grommets and with a strong light, I could see copper strands showing. No good! I ordered 2 feet of authentic looking wire from Antique Fan Parts and am glad I did! The wire loops connected at the switch on the old wire looked nearly new, were flexible and had full color on the casings, but where it exited the base is where it got crispy. Clipping and examining the old wire revealed that the casings around the flexible wire had disintegrated into dust. Being about a stone's throw away from you, and myself not having a painting rig anymore, I opted to rattle can it. My fan had to have been kept in a wet area, as the cage, blade and base were pretty rusted/corroded, and the remaining paint after cleaning was all chipped up and awful. As you know, our area has been under a heat dome since around June 9th, and the humidity is usually waaay over 50%, not conducive for outside painting, but I'm trying. The primer lays well, but not the paint. That is what's holding back reassembly. I replaced the power cord, 2uf capacitor, headwire and cleaned the switch. Looks like you're much further ahead of the game than I am. Hope she runs great for you!!! :)

[Gerry Meeks]

What are good ways to clean the R&M badge without removing the black print? Also, what would be the approximate date of manufacture of this fan? Thanks

 

[James Landry]

10 hours ago, Gerry Meeks said:

What are good ways to clean the R&M badge without removing the black print? Also, what would be the approximate date of manufacture of this fan? Thanks

 

These are some questions I'd also like answered for myself. Seems the answers lie somewhere in the "old forum", which I've not yet been able to access. You'll have to dig them up yourself. Good luck! (You'll need it!!!). I've just been going on youtube to watch videos. Answers come slowly- like having teeth pulled. Looks as if you're almost done, anyway. Don't sweat it. ;) 

[Stan Adams]

That is the last R&M before the art deco movement. Before doing a lot of restoration, make sure the fan runs. That is a six pole motor that is nice & quiet, but a rewind is double the value of the fan. One sold at the AFCA auction for $10, a rewind is $200 +. If the motor won’t run, stop & wait for a parts fan.

[David Kilnapp]

That fan dates to approximately 1923 to 1924. The blades are Micarta blades (google Micarta - a material invented by George Westinghouse and still in use today for insulating properties). I agree with what was said regarding the headwire. It looks fine just as it is. These stamped steel fans' stators were press fit into the case and they are extremely difficult to remove. The bearings (front and rear) on this fan do not float like GE fans of that era so getting the rotor back in so that the front and rear bearings are perfectly aligned can be challenging. Here's the trick. Put the rotor back in and make sure there isn't a lot of play front to back. If there is, you may need to put some fiber washers in front of and behind the rotor. Fiber washers can be found at most hardware stores or you can be them, in different sizes, on Amazon.com. Insert the rotor and put the front cover on loosely. Put the acorn nuts on around the front cover and slowly tighten them by going to opposing nuts. Check to see that the rotor turns freely as you tighten the nuts. You can turn the fan on as you tighten those acorn nuts and listen as you tighten. THe fan will slow if the spindle starts to bind. When you hear that, back off a quarter turn on that nut and go to the opposite nut. It takes time and patience so proceed slowly. 

As far as cleaning the cage badge goes, some have said that wiping with baby oil or WD 40 is a good way to clean the badge. Whatever you do, don't press too hard with the rag. A very light cleaning with FLITZ will make the badge shine. When you are satisfied that the badge looks the way you want it, you can put a clear coat on it so it doesn't tarnish. I use Diamond Clear 

Good stuff and inexpensive.

THe paint on your fan looks pretty good. Try cleaning it with cleaner wax and finish with MaGuiars wax. It'll clean up nicely.

You'll notice that these pressed fit stamped steel fans run hot. That's normal so don't be concerned. The lack of air space between the stator and the head case is the reason they run hot.

You have chosen a nice fan for a first run at restoration though, as I said, the lack of floating, self aligning bearings, can make getting it back together so that it doesn't bind up can be challenging. Good luck and post questions if you run into any issues.

Great pictures by the way!

Edited August 4, 2023 by David Kilnapp

[Stan Adams]

David, this is an R&M, no micarta

[Gerry Meeks]

3 hours ago, Stan Adams said:

That is the last R&M before the art deco movement. Before doing a lot of restoration, make sure the fan runs. That is a six pole motor that is nice & quiet, but a rewind is double the value of the fan. One sold at the AFCA auction for $10, a rewind is $200 +. If the motor won’t run, stop & wait for a parts fan.

I carefully inserted the rotar, and plugged the cord in. I used the slide control and turned the fan on. It barely turns, and I needed to assist the rotar by turning it slowly. After reading these comments, I looked carefully for bearings on the front and back of the rotar. There are none. I looked in the front and back housings and all I see are what look to be pressed in brass bushings. I am inserting the rotar dry, without bearings and without any lubrication. Should I put some Dielectric grease on the rotar shaft front and back so that it is lubricated inside of the brass bushings? Is it feasible to apply some dielectric grease on the inside of the stator or on the outside of the rotar? 

Also, note from the photos, I have not removed the front cover, only the back cover. Should I remove the front cover and insert the rotar and plug the fan in to test it that way? I am dry fitting the rotar in the stator for testing, with the front cover in place and the front rotar shaft going through the bushing in the front cover. That might be restricting its movement. 

I have not found any bearings or fiber washers on the rotar shaft. The oil in the reservoirs was turned to a very heavy paste from age. So I doubt the rotar was getting any lubrication at all. Maybe that is why the fan was not turning when I got it. 

What should I do next? 

Thanks

[Stan Adams]

Oil the bearings by putting a few drops of oil on the bearing surface & a few drops on the rotor shaft. When assembled the rotor should turn freely. Don’t worry about end play yet. See if the motor starts & runs. R&M had the weakest choke coils in the industry for some reason. If it won’t start but will run with a twist of the rotor shaft, the choke is likely bad.

[Anthony Lindsey]

The bushings are the bearings.  It doesn't use roller bearings.  No dielectric grease.

Oil the shafts a little wwhere they contact the bushings

Edited August 4, 2023 by Anthony Lindsey

[Gerry Meeks]

1 hour ago, Stan Adams said:

Oil the bearings by putting a few drops of oil on the bearing surface & a few drops on the rotor shaft. When assembled the rotor should turn freely. Don’t worry about end play yet. See if the motor starts & runs. R&M had the weakest choke coils in the industry for some reason. If it won’t start but will run with a twist of the rotor shaft, the choke is likely bad.

 

1 hour ago, Stan Adams said:

R&M had the weakest choke coils in the industry for some reason. If it won’t start but will run with a twist of the rotor shaft, the choke is likely bad.

Stan, thank you for your help, but I don't know what you mean by "Choke Coils". Are these the coils/windings or are 'choke coils' something different? 

Are you saying that if it doesn't start without my assistance, that the motor itself is bad and it needs new windings? 

[Stan Adams]

No the choke coil is on top of the switch & serves two purposes. The main purpose is speed control, but it also feeds the start winding a different voltage than the run winding causing a phase shift which in turn starts the motor.

[Gerry Meeks]

Thanks Stan. I will take a look at it. 

Stan, I found there is no way to remove the "front cover" to the fan motor. There is no seam, and there are no bolts. There is a small removable housing for the brass bushing on both ends of the fan motor. It is removable by screws from the inside of the front and rear housing. I assume this allows the manufacturer a way to press in the brass bushing. Then it is attached by the screws from the inside of the front and rear housing. 

I was looking at the oil wick access area on the rotar shaft at the front of the motor. I found a groove just outside where the shaft seats. I was wondering if the fan was designed to have a seal of some sort in that groove, that keeps the oil from getting to the "dry" part of the motor, the rotar and stator. I can photograph that area if you would like. 

To rephrase, the oil reservoir carries oil to the rotar shaft via the wick. The oil then travels around the shaft and inside the bushing. What is supposed to keep the oil from migrating towards the stator and getting it wet? Is there supposed to be a seal of some type? Is this where the felt washer goes? Does it work as a barrier as well as a spacer? I am not sure where it should go and what holds it in place. 

Thanks, 

Gerry

[Gerry Meeks]

I notice the round "contacts" at the edge of the rotar. See photo below. They look very worn. I cannot figure out where they make contact inside of the stator, and how they may have worn down. Keep in mind this is my first electric motor that I have worked on. 

Are those contact points? What wore them down? What are they supposed to make contact with, because I don't see it in the stator. 

Also, Stan if you look inside the motor housing in the photo below, you will see where the screws hold the housing in place that contains the brass bushing. There is no front cover to the motor other than this small section. I don't know how I would rewire the head wire if I had to. 

Please enlarge these photos and explain this to me. 

Thanks, Gerry in Houston

 

[James Landry]

2 hours ago, Gerry Meeks said:

I notice the round "contacts" at the edge of the rotar. See photo below. They look very worn. I cannot figure out where they make contact inside of the stator, and how they may have worn down. Keep in mind this is my first electric motor that I have worked on. 

Are those contact points? What wore them down? What are they supposed to make contact with, because I don't see it in the stator. 

Also, Stan if you look inside the motor housing in the photo below, you will see where the screws hold the housing in place that contains the brass bushing. There is no front cover to the motor other than this small section. I don't know how I would rewire the head wire if I had to. 

Please enlarge these photos and explain this to me. 

Thanks, Gerry in Houston

 

Pretty sure that was the way the rotor was manufactured. Mine looks nearly identical at the ends. As was stated by others, check your choke with an ohmmeter (the small looking transformer deal on top of the capacitor, in the base near the switch). Three screws on top of the base and the bottom will come off. Here's where you have to be very careful NOT to disturb the headwire much at all. The choke (coil) should be checked and it wouldn't be a bad idea to install a new cap (which also may be hindering operation. That oil filled "bathtub" cap is nearly 100 years old!!!). 

[Stan Adams]

This fan does not use a capacitor & an ohm meter is ineffective to check a choke other than seeing if it has continuity. Contrary to popular belief, ohm readings are not accurate for checking a choke as they work on reactance. No the rear cover is a solid piece & can’t be removed. On an induction motor, there are no contacts with the rotor, the current is induced. The round objects are the rivets where it was put together.

[James Landry]

38 minutes ago, Stan Adams said:

This fan does not use a capacitor & an ohm meter is ineffective to check a choke other than seeing if it has continuity. Contrary to popular belief, ohm readings are not accurate for checking a choke as they work on reactance. No the rear cover is a solid piece & can’t be removed. On an induction motor, there are no contacts with the rotor, the current is induced. The round objects are the rivets where it was put together.

Interesting! His fan must be considerably older, as my similar looking machine has a 2uf cap there. Go figure. I'll shut up now. Lol

[Stan Adams]

No not meant as any offense at all James trust me. This is how we all learn including this old redneck. 😀 The very next series has a cap, so you were right on.

[James Landry]

12 minutes ago, Stan Adams said:

No not meant as any offense at all James trust me. This is how we all learn including this old redneck. 😀 The very next series has a cap, so you were right on.

No offense taken. This is my first "fan" I've re-done also (I've rebuilt antique jukeboxes, cars, sewing machines, etc...)- seems innocently simple enough, but has its own built in nuances and complexities. Gerry's rig is centrifugal start then, made around 1924, so the reason for no cap? I never was able to put a date to mine, but everytime I even touch the rig, it screams "1930" at me.  

[Stan Adams]

Actually his is around 1930 & is the last run before the new style. No centrifugal start, but still a split phase design. One leg of the choke feeds the start winding. Once the fan gets up to speed, the induction cancels out the start winding. Almost a cross between a PSC & a split phase.

[James Landry]

23 minutes ago, Stan Adams said:

Actually his is around 1930 & is the last run before the new style. No centrifugal start, but still a split phase design. One leg of the choke feeds the start winding. Once the fan gets up to speed, the induction cancels out the start winding. Almost a cross between a PSC & a split phase.

EXTREMELY interesting! We'll have to research this stuff further. I am excited!

[Gerry Meeks]

It is interesting. I will remove the bottom today and see what is looks like. I will photograph what I find and post it here. 

I have another question for whomever wants to answer it. Someone wrote in one of the threads that if a variable voltage regulator (I forgot the official name) is used when starting up the fan, that it will slow the fan rotation and make the fan operate in a more pleasant way. This is not a direct quote. Is this true, and should I do it once I complete the rebuild. I don't understand how it could help. But this is my first electric motor work. 

Thanks. Gerry in Houston

[Gerry Meeks]

On 8/5/2023 at 3:33 PM, Gerry Meeks said:

 a variable voltage regulator (I forgot the official name) is used when starting up the fan

VARIAC! 

My memory is kind of spotty. A day or so later a word will come to me that I could not remember earlier. When it does, I tend to say it out loud. Of course, I may be talking to someone else, about a totally different subject when I do. 

I have a variac that I use to start up old audio gear that has not been used in a while, especially old tube gear. Should I use it when starting up old fans?