Steve Rockwell Posted May 9, 2022 Posted May 9, 2022 Images courtesy of miSci The Museum of Innovation and Science Schenectady NY 1 Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 10, 2022 Author Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) Edited June 14, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Jim Kovar Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) Fan photos credit to Stephen Osdene. Edited May 10, 2022 by Jim Kovar Quote
Jim Kovar Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) The "EE Fan" is of differentdesign but does have thesame base as the others. Edited May 10, 2022 by Jim Kovar Quote
Russ Huber Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) Are you teasing? The Randolph Daisy and Splitdorf appear to have Lieb motors on them. Is Lieb recognized for that fan motor you pictured, or Edison? Edit: R. J. Randolph appears to have been an electrical engineer representing a sales office for the Excelsior Electric Co. at the Rookery(?) at the time of introduction of the Randolph Daisy. That has to be a Lieb motor. Edited May 10, 2022 by Russ Huber Quote
Russ Huber Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 I can about guarantee you there won't be another post on this post for an ID. What manufacturer is listed on your image, please. Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) Answers: Lieb is Good. Edison is Good... I won't say better... But That brings, considering the thread excerpted above, the total of potential answers to five. Let's immediately narrow that to four, because the "E.E." fan is a red herring... The field of choices becomes Randolph, Splitdorf, Edison and Lieb. All display essentially the same motor, making time of announcement a factor in precedence and naming. Chronologically, the first announcement is that of an Edison fan manufactured by Lieb in The Electrical World of 27 Jun 1891. I've found no attribution of design anywhere in any of these fans' production by the way... something which bothers me... I hope someone turns up something. This New Edison Fan Motor does not appear to utilize the commutator brushes for which Lieb had just received a patent, US454488, merely four days before the magazine announcement, somewhat puzzling. Enlarging the engraving provides an image of an Edison General Electric tag... whether imaginative or a real depiction I wouldn't venture... Here's a clip from October 1891 which at least lends credence to the idea of there being a Lieb-named fan... And now is when those marvelous modern Lieb photos provide useful evidence, because there's no denying that such a thing as a Lieb fan exists having the tag pic right there to behold. Before returning to this subject, let's take up the other two choices mentioned above: Randolph and Splitdorf. Edited May 11, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) I got timed-out yet again, and so will have to split this discourse into bite-sized chunks. Sequentially, the Randolph announcement is the next one, coming March & April 1892... Language similar to that describing the Lieb is used... brought out, made, manufactured... no hint of designed or invented in any of the copy. All secondary sources indicate that Randolph would or could not have produced the fans but again that conclusion can be easily refuted with a single citation. What can be said about Randolph is that he was noted for selling all kinds of electrical gear. I'm not sure how long the Randolph fan was produced, but I'm rejecting it as the answer for good reason as you'll see. Edited May 11, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) Splitdorf's announcement is dated the Fourth of August 1894. Once again, the subject of the article is listed as the manufacturer, though in this instance a two year history is part of the article. Splitdorf the Elder had been active in electricity as early as the 1850's; he became well-known for his insulated wire production in particular. This is from The Telegrapher, 31 Jul 1865 Later, and particularly in the twentieth century, the two sons moved the family business strongly into the automotive-electrical field, where they became a well-known name. This is Trow's Directory 1914 So there's a heritage of electrical experience within that family, but I've not encountered the sort of evidence to give further credit to them beyond having produced the fans as depicted in the Jim Kovar excerpt far above. Edited May 11, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) All of which brings us back to Lieb and Edison. The early archival photo (dated 17 Oct 1892) is not capable of the extreme zooming that many of the historical GE photos are, but I enlarged and rotated the tag portion in order to compare it with the Lieb tag photo, and I believe the old pic carries the same Lieb tag, not Edison General Electric as the engraving in Electrical World depicts... The layout, the spacing, the "W" I perceive, rivet location--- all suggest to me that's a Lieb tag. Now, whether that's a Lieb fan or an Edison fan, that's a hair I'm not prepared to split right now. We have to throw into the mix the fact that it was during this period of time that two of the big three merged, forming the General Electric Company, and the Edison electrical companies by that name disappeared. Both Charles A. Lieb and Splitdorf, whether the father Henry or the two electrical sons Charles & John (it was Charles who manufactured the motor) were capable of designing and bringing to production a motor such as these. I don’t believe the same can be said of Randolph, reinforcing the idea that this fan is not any of his original work. It’s within the realm of possibility that a third party— take Hochhausen as a possible example, or Eickemeyer or Sprague— designed the motor, and Lieb, later Randolph, later still Splitdorf were licensed to build and even market it… speculation I admit. But Lieb Randolph and Splitdorf, as well as Excelsior, all had interactions and/or intertwined ownership with the General Edi-Thom-son group. There has to be good reason these essentially identical fans came under those different names… I don't know for fact but presume that all Edison fan work prior to the amalgamation became property of G.E., and that Edison had motivation, if he wished to remain involved in these electrical ventures, he would have to come up with fans of his own. I'd wish to be corrected if I have any of this wrong, but because the slo-motors preceded amalgamation and were produced in Schenectady (best of my knowledge or best guess?) they became G.E. property not Edison, as would these fan motors in this thread... perhaps explaining the multiple production under various names, and explaining the fresh Edison ventures with battery fans, C-Frames and Ironclads........ Edited May 11, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Russ Huber Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 Facts..........this was ahead of Randolph and Splitdorf, who with little doubt were agents for the fans. Lieb designed it, Edison manufactures it and takes credit, what is new. Fact Jack. Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) Lieb designed it, Edison manufactures it and takes credit, what is new. Fact Jack. That's what I was trying to get at, Russ... Is that substantiated, or assumption based on the marketing timeline? Like so many other electricians of the period, Lieb put a great deal of his effort into traction/transit work, where such a considerable portion of investment capital was going... following the money, as well as the greater public good... I'm finding some interesting inter-connections from that period of time-- early 90's--between Charles A. Lieb and Sprague and, of course, GE..... Edited May 11, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
Jim Kovar Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steve Rockwell said: Lieb designed it, Edison manufactures it and takes credit, what is new. Fact Jack. That's what I was trying to get at, Russ... Is that substantiated, or assumption based on the marketing timeline? I'm finding some interesting inter-connections from that period of time-- early 90's--between Charles A. Lieb and Sprague..... "Edison manufactures" ? So, am I not readingthe below right?Especially the twoprepositional phrases"for-" and "by-." Edited May 11, 2022 by Jim Kovar Quote
Russ Huber Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 2 hours ago, Jim Kovar said: "Edison manufactures" ? So, am I not readingthe below right?Especially the twoprepositional phrases"for-" and "by-." I think figurative is the word, Jim. I am simply implying Edison never seemed to fail to have his best interests in mind. 🙂 Quote
Steve Cunningham Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 Edison was the Father of intellectual property rights. Quote
Jim Kovar Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) If Edison had manufacturedit, his inflated ego wouldn'tallow another's name to beon it, exclusively. JMO. Edited May 11, 2022 by Jim Kovar Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 11, 2022 Author Posted May 11, 2022 I'll say essentially the same thing, but differently: When didn't Edison put his name on a product? Some of those C-Frames carry the famous signature as well, Thomas was not shy about self-promotion... Which is suggestive that the fan should be viewed as Lieb. I'm pretty-well convinced now that Lieb left his fan interests to Splitdorf, in order to concentrate on his street railway work and businesses, and Splitdorf was then able to promote the fan in his own name... (where are examples?) Read the excerpt above carefully, and I think you'll agree with me. Randolph likely came by his access due to years spent working within the Thomson-Houston sphere, and it may have been a case like Russ described earlier... Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 12, 2022 Author Posted May 12, 2022 To my reckoning, the only one with the tag properly oriented is in the historical photo..... Quote
Steve Rockwell Posted May 12, 2022 Author Posted May 12, 2022 (edited) On 5/11/2022 at 8:04 AM, Steve Rockwell said: Like so many other electricians of the period, Lieb put a great deal of his effort into traction/transit work, where such a considerable portion of investment capital was going... following the money, as well as the greater public good... Quote: It still remains to be seen precisely who designed the motor, and we may never know... It could have been a third party, possibly an Edison employee/affiliate, with the production contract then placed with Lieb and Splitdorf who, like Bergman, supplied other electrical gear to NY, the US and the EGE... It was Lieb's manufactory, hence the priority given the Lieb Machine tag? If Lieb had produced it independently and proposed selling through the Edison organization, seems to me the Edison name would have been displayed..... prominently. This fan is still a puzzle awaiting solution........ Edited May 12, 2022 by Steve Rockwell Quote
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