Still Can't Get Westinghouse Pancake to Start!!

[Vic Valencheck]

Most restores don't get me frustrated but this one takes the cake. I can not get this fan to start on it's own. I've tried every possible combination of wiring of the stator. Installed different numbers of fiber washers. A new bearing and rotor shaft was installed by Daryll Hudson. The rotor rotates freely. I give the rotor  a slight push and it starts up and runs fine. Each stator coil measures 17 ohms. Is that about right? I can't find any information on that. I feel like a lost snake in the grass. Haha

   Does anyone have any ideas what my problem might be? Also does anyone have a good working fan that they can take readings at full and half speed ?

[Russ Huber]

Bump.

[Levi Mevis]

This sounds very similar to an old R & M Fan I have that I had replaced the headwire on and I've attempted to wire the headwire up to the switch every which way I could think of and I couldn't get the fan to power on, (except in my fan's case not even a push start would start the fan up) and the speed coil was measuring as it should and every thing, it was weird, and also the motor measured as it should as well. 

[Nicholas Denney]

A shaded pole motor that won't start but runs points to problems with the shading coils and/or the continuity within the rotor itself. It's also possible this motor was toyed with before and the stator coils aren't correctly oriented. If it is not self-starting, it is probably also running weakly, but probably not as noticeably on 120-125v as it would be on 100-110. Normally this is said in jest but I think someone that has the skill and experience to work on this fan should be its rightful owner.

Edited September 26, 2024 by Nicholas Denney

[Michael Rathberger]

Nick. That last comment is way out of line.

[Chris Campbell]

Vic, 

You can put a low dc voltage on the line bypassing switch to test polarity. Something around 24v and with rotor removed take a compass to each coil. The magnetic fields should alternate N, S, N, S.  Just check that each field is opposite polarity of adjacent coil. It appears coils have been reconnected and one coil could have current running in reverse. You should be able to pick up polarity through housing but may be best to pull from housing.

Your rotor is riveted. Aside from polarity test  you may also try taking multimeter to check continuity from one side to the next on rotor. Likely not a issue with rivets but I would check area circled below. I had a Trojan with copper bars soldered. Solder was missing on one bar and struggled. Id think one magnetic pole has current reversed but keep rotor in mind.

Great thing about Shaded Pole is no start windings to burn up. You would be hard pressed to damage the motor as you work through it. In principle, this operates identically to Trojans and GE Pancakes. 

BTW… congratulations on owning this!

 

Edited September 27, 2024 by Chris Campbell

[Russ Huber]

3 hours ago, Michael Rathberger said:

Nick. That last comment is way out of line.

Pretentious?

[Russ Huber]

Vic,

I feel your frustration. I have eyeballed your image more than once and it sure as hell looks like it should just take off. Being your rotor spins freely and your motor runs fine with a spin, ???  Maybe Bill Fanum has some insight into those shades and what they can potentially fail to do.

[Nicholas Denney]

8 hours ago, Vic Valencheck said:

Most restores don't get me frustrated but this one takes the cake.

   Does anyone have any ideas what my problem might be? Also does anyone have a good working fan that they can take readings at full and half speed?

If you really want to continue to tackle this, I can walk you through it. What equipment do you have at your disposal? With no equipment at all, the least you can do is slowly turn the rotor CLOCKWISE with the motor powered and feel for any aberration. Turning against the direction of rotation is more effective in detecting changes in the magnetic field. How quickly do you have to push the blade to get it going? A slight nudge, a spastic flick of the wrist? There is so much we don't yet know of your diagnosis.

[Nicholas Denney]

4 hours ago, Michael Rathberger said:

Nick. That last comment is way out of line.

But why? I didn't say he obtained it unfairly. I've sold off or just given away fans I've felt unlucky with or gotten frustrated over. I rather it be out of my hands before I do something in the heat of the moment that I will regret. It's happened in the past, I've learned from it. It's easier for me to get rid of a fan I really liked but couldn't hack, than keep my hands out of it before I ruined it. It's just my compulsion to fix what I've come to own.

[Michael Rathberger]

Vic, on the back pages of the fan collector magazine under help is an ad from Bill Fanum offering motor help over the phone. Short of that I think Chris's description of diagnosing the issue has sound advice. Remember, this wasn't rocket science back then and we've all been where you're at. The north south on the coils is a pretty old trick, I met a guy with a crocker wheeler last week who took his motor to a shop just to find he had two south poles. The oldest guy in the shop pulled a compass out of his tool box. One little wire swap and he was back in business. 

As an aside, it was nice to see you at fan fair again. Good luck.

[Vic Valencheck]

After unsoldering the connections again, a lead had broken off from one of the coils. Grrr I was able to dig it out from my newly coil wrap job. I got out my compass and DC power supply and tested the individual coils for polarity. Two of the four weren't connected properly. In the video the white tape is the N end. It starts up but very slowly. I'm going to but it all back together with the blade on Monday and see how it does.

    Thanks everyone for your help and comments. If it weren't for you guys I probably would have thrown a lot of fans out in the garbage. Instead they are sitting on the shelf running. Was also nice seeing you at fan fair Michael.

 

The stator is wired as in the diagram.

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by Vic Valencheck

[Russ Huber]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:05 PM, Chris Campbell said:

Vic, 

You can put a low dc voltage on the line bypassing switch to test polarity. Something around 24v and with rotor removed take a compass to each coil. The magnetic fields should alternate N, S, N, S.  Just check that each field is opposite polarity of adjacent coil. It appears coils have been reconnected and one coil could have current running in reverse. You should be able to pick up polarity through housing but may be best to pull from housing.

Good one. I get Lexdysia when I look at those pole winding connections. Thank God the GE cakes I have done I paid careful attention to what pole wire goes where if I removed the coils from the laminations. 🙂

[Nicholas Denney]

2 hours ago, Vic Valencheck said:

After unsoldering the connections again, a lead had broken off from one of the coils. Grrr I was able to dig it out from my newly coil wrap job. I got out my compass and DC power supply and tested the individual coils for polarity. Two of the four weren't connected properly.

Newly wrapped coils, is that what we are seeing at the beginning of this post?

[Vic Valencheck]

3 hours ago, Nicholas Denney said:

Newly wrapped coils, is that what we are seeing at the beginning of this post?

Yes, why?

[Nicholas Denney]

On 9/28/2024 at 6:40 PM, Vic Valencheck said:

Yes, why?

Wish I had known that, would have been my first point of suspicion. I'm glad you had enough equipment to handle this. At least the DC supply doesn't have to be much more than a recycled wall wart that's at least 12V

[Vic Valencheck]

Starts up slowly with blade. Time to but it back together.