Steve Rockwell Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Jim & Russ have held off declaring answers up to this point, giving others a chance to participate... I say from this point that no holds should be barred, if you've got the answer, chime in... When I see the correct answer clearly stated, I'll jump... The first photo, equivalent to what I've previously used to initiate a thread, just doesn't give enough, so I'll just post an uninterrupted image, throw caution to the wind... This one should not be easy to answer... we'll see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Hint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Atkinson Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Isn’t that the Geo C. Towle/Eclipse motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rockwell Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 Russ has it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) I am not boasting, but I was on it as soon as I saw the image. There is a sore thumb clue staring you right in the face. Many of you have seen the clue looking right at you, some of you have owned it. To the best of my knowledge this CF has never surfaced. Edited January 2 by Russ Huber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rockwell Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 It dumbfounded me that you answered so quickly, but this morning I figured out where you found your image, and that led to the Hint's explanation, which itself was unknown to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 There are actually a number of members who looked at the hint closely I am sure at past Fan Fair meets. The more prominent members have eyeballed the hint for sure closely at Fan Fair and the forum. When it is finally revealed here by someone who sees the hint, the unknowing will slap their forehead in private at home and have a cocktail to help ease the disgust they did not see the hint they have seen before earlier. This disgust will be even more intense for those that don't see the hint and own it. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Hint #3. What kind of motor is it? Study its construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Peshoff Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Looks like a Tesla induction motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 12 minutes ago, Bob Peshoff said: Looks like a Tesla induction motor. It is not a Tesla design. And electrical trade does NOT so far that I can find support what current the thing runs on. However, I feel confident based on its construction it is an AC motor with the 4 poles. Hint # 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Atkinson Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, Russ Huber said: ….I feel confident based on its construction it is an AC motor with the 4 poles. Hint # 4. To my 👀, I am looking at a DC, four pole motor with brushes at 90°, which is a given for four pole motor design. Unless you understand something about motor construction that I do not (which is entirely possible). Please, tell me how this is AC motor? At the time this motor was made, AC/DC was not yet a thing, I believe? I’ve also never seen or heard about a universal motor ceiling fan. Always either AC or DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 hours ago, Evan Atkinson said: To my 👀, I am looking at a DC, four pole motor with brushes at 90°, which is a given for four pole motor design. Unless you understand something about motor construction that I do not (which is entirely possible). Please, tell me how this is AC motor? At the time this motor was made, AC/DC was not yet a thing, I believe? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) It probably is a DC CF. I am aware of no laminations. The cores the poles surround are hollowed out, the claim is to reduce weight. It simply makes no mention in electrical trade to designate it AC or DC. Both the Lundell AC desk and the Lundell Empire CF with their 90-degree brush arrangement went off the market in 03. Edited January 3 by Russ Huber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) Lundell was the only fan motor engineer that came to my mind using the 90-degree brush arrangement when Steve posted here. Edited January 3 by Russ Huber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rockwell Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 Cat's out of the bag, so, mixed metaphors aside, let's pull the plug. In light of this excerpt, I knew there was some likelihood of Evan going in the wrong direction, but we all learn from this one. I'm still quite staggered that images such as these still exist, and the chance to see portions of the fans' component parts a remarkable circumstance... I heartily recommend re-perusal of this comprehensive thread by Mike Kearns: https://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/59428.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Atkinson Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) Boy, all these lightbulbs have been going off in my head. I've been wanting to reply to this thread for over a week, but I didn't have time to write a thoughtful response until now. Your post is taking quite the illuminating turn Steve. I forgot all about Sprague's Lundell Empire motor. It's not the first time I've confused it with the Towle Eclipse. As Russ pointed out, no Empires have yet been found by any collector who has publicly announced possession and I certainly don't have one. You see, back in 2013 the best image we had of the internals of the Empire motor was a very small cutaway image shown in the 1900 American Electrician. The same image Russ posted, but when you zoomed in or enlarged it, it pixellates. Steve, you did a nice job of sharpening it for better viewing but until you posted these crystal-clear Schenectady images showing additional angles and detail, I had not and did not connect the 1900 AE cutaway showing the square Empire motor to the motor inside the Empire top-drive fan, shown in trade journals and catalog illustrations. Sounds silly to say it, but I just didn't think about it at all! I must have been reading too fast 😂. Realizing that motor was inside the Empire lead to the percolating of some other thoughts which in turn gave rise to additional questions and plausible possibilities. Specifically, the Crescent ceiling fan Tom Dreesen scooped in Louisiana that eventually ended up here in my collection. Recall that in Tom Dreesen's original 2013 post "Crescent ceiling fan found" (https://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/29711-1.html), I observed the field casting of the Crescent motor is square. And I made the comment it was unique among early ceiling fans. Clearly, I forgot the Empire, but that sure does open a can of worms. In the past and from time to time, I caught a post or two that Russ would make on the old forum boards into his research on the George C. Towle Mfg., D.H. Kulp, Marietta Mfg, Crescent Electric, Pennsylvania Electric, which all evolved into Fidelity. All interesting, detailed and granular and over the last week+, I took time to read all your super deep-dive research Russ. That was some excellent sleuthing you did over a lot of time and I wanted to be sure I was fresh up to date on all of it. Why do I mention The Crescent as it relates to this post about Sprague's Lundell Empire? Here's why: I'm getting the clear idea there was some kind of relationship between Sprague Electric and Crescent Electric/Marietta Mfg/Pennsylvania Electric. What exactly it was I cannot say, but at minimum it appears the companies either produced (or were supplied) remarkably similar parts. For example, compare the shape of the blades and the palm-frond blade brackets of the Lundell Empire to those on the Crescent. To me, they appear identical. Then, I noticed the field casting in the Crescent and the one in the Empire seem to be the same square casting. To be sure, there are some obvious differences. The Empire had that four-spoke bracket on the top that did double-duty as a frame stiffener and as a brush-holder while The Crescent has no such bracket. The Empire motor is a four pole motor, and the Crescent is bipolar. But it gets more interesting than that! Through your research Russ, I've learned The Crescent came to market made by The Crescent Electric Co. (D.H. Kulp) in 1894, using the J.D. Brinser patent. Outwardly, the fan looked a certain way (remember, we have some pretty good pictures from Tony's Crescent fan that was found a few years back. His motor is the Brinser patent motor https://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=56002&forum_id=1&jump_to=476108#p476108). But apparently D.H. Kulp needed investors to stay afloat so he approached H. Burd Cassel of Marietta Manufacturing and was bought out in 1895 though he stayed on as plant manager. Together, they produced The Crescent by Marietta Mfg. Co. still using the Brinser patent though the fan changed outer appearances slightly. That was 1896 but by 1899/1900, Diehl sued them for patent infringement and won. So Marietta Mfg. paid Diehl royalties on all Crescent fans produced for barely a year before Marietta Mfg dropped the Crescent. After the Diehl verdict, H. Burd had to have recognized the economics of paying Diehl royalties on each fan sold were untenable. So he moved Crescent production out of Marietta Mfg., and under another of his businesses, the Pennsylvania Electric Co., starting in 1902. But it wasn't as simple as producing the fan under another company. H. Burd knew he had to be more careful than that. He needed a new motor for The Crescent that was not J.D. Brinser's motor: that's the one that got him in trouble with Diehl. What would be the easiest way for him to continue production undisturbed? Use existing relationships (whatever they are) with your suppliers to source a new motor. I'd bet good money H. Burd Cassel sourced the Empire motor from Sprague and adapted it for his use (with a combination of the Lundell motor design mixed with a little Brinser design) from 1902 through the end of the Crescent fan production (Russ, you said about 1911). If my theory holds water, and the motor in my Crescent fan is indeed the Lundell square field motor, then my fan was made sometime after 1902, just when (interestingly) Sprague dropped the Lundell Empire motor from their catalog. Odd coincidence, isn't it? Or maybe it's not a coincidence at all but a behind-the-scenes deal that allowed The Crescent to continue when Sprague was perhaps ready to phase-out Lundell's Empire production. Now, if only I could find some evidence of a relationship between Sprague, Crescent/Marietta Mfg/Pennsylvania Electric, that would sure line up the dominoes nicely! Edited January 16 by Evan Atkinson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kovar Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 On 1/3/2024 at 8:51 AM, Russ Huber said: Lundell was the only fan motor engineer that came to my mind using the 90-degree brush arrangement... The one I'd love to find... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kovar Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 4 hours ago, Jim Kovar said: The one I'd love to find... On 1/3/2024 at 8:51 AM, Russ Huber said: Lundell was the only fan motor engineer that came to my mind using the 90-degree brush arrangement when Steve posted here. I'm slipping. I commented on the same C-W and Lundell AC 90 degree brush arrangement back in 2015. Rare Crocker-Wheeler Ceiling Fan - Pre-1950 (Antique) - Antique Fan Collectors Association - AFCA Forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 13 hours ago, Evan Atkinson said: I'd bet good money H. Burd Cassel sourced the Empire motor from Sprague and adapted it for his use (with a combination of the Lundell motor design mixed with a little Brinser design) from 1902 through the end of the Crescent fan production (Russ, you said about 1911). If my theory holds water, and the motor in my Crescent fan is indeed the Lundell square field motor, then my fan was made sometime after 1902, just when (interestingly) Sprague dropped the Lundell Empire motor from their catalog. Odd coincidence, isn't it? Or maybe it's not a coincidence at all but a behind-the-scenes deal that allowed The Crescent to continue when Sprague was perhaps ready to phase-out Lundell's Empire production. After the Diehl motor patent infringement case Crescent CF fan manufacture was continued under the newly formed Pennsylvania Electric Co. paying patent royalties to Diehl. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Atkinson Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 6 hours ago, Jim Kovar said: The one I'd love to find... You and me both Jim. This C-W has quite the casting. I’ll bet it wasn’t in production long. Wonder if the motor inside is the Hochhausen patent? I don’t recall where that motor was assigned. I want to say it had 90° brushes if memory serves. 🤔 Edited January 16 by Evan Atkinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Huber Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 23 minutes ago, Evan Atkinson said: You and me both Jim. This C-W has quite the casting. I’ll bet it wasn’t in production long. Wonder if the motor inside is the Hochhausen patent? I don’t recall where that motor was assigned. I want to say it had 90° brushes if memory serves. 🤔 Hochhausen - Excelsior Electric Co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Atkinson Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Russ Huber said: After the Diehl motor patent infringement case Crescent CF fan manufacture was continued under the newly formed Pennsylvania Electric Co. paying patent royalties to Diehl. That blurb specifically states Marietta Mfg Co. and though it mentions a reorganization, wasn’t The Pennsylvania Electric Co. already a completely separate Cassel business? Methinks if you go to the trouble of changing 75% of the design of your motor and moving manufacture from one legal business to another, one is doing that for a compelling reason. I can think of no more compelling reason than protecting your bottom line, which is what I think H. Burd, clever dog that he was, was trying to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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