Water Dynamo

[Russ Huber]

It was a Finch descendent I was in contact with in past at the company. Carlisle eventually sold out to Finch. You can read about it in the link below on their website history.

About (carlislefinch.com)

[Russ Huber]

If someone wants to take the time to do the research and put your hounds to the trail, this guy(in the link below) it is claimed had a prized 19th century C & F train set in his collection. Somebody out there has it proudly on display probably on the east coast.

B and O Magazine - Google Books

[Louis Luu]

On 6/3/2022 at 7:03 PM, Russ Huber said:

Something else that is very rare is a cast bronze/brass GE kidney gearbox. I can't find one anywhere. Probably one of the rarester things known to man. Fact Jack.

[Russ Huber]

Am I in Heaven? I must be in Heaven. 

[Louis Luu]

9 minutes ago, Russ Huber said:

Am I in Heaven? I must be in Heaven. 

No.  Heaven would be littered with magic unicorn and mini-lollipops.

[Louis Luu]

140 teeth. 

[Louis Luu]

Got the crank gears done.

[Jay Carter]

On 6/3/2022 at 7:32 PM, Louis Luu said:

This thing is small and would be impractical.  Most of the ones I've seen are much bigger and do work.  This thing is pocket size compare to most.

 

Some additional scans of your likely #7 dynamo, from my personal catalog collection of old  Brueggemann Hardware Co. St Louis MO. 12th & Pine Street

 

[Russ Huber]

9 minutes ago, Jay Carter said:

Some additional scans of your likely #7 dynamo, from my personal catalog collection of old  Brueggemann Hardware Co. St Louis MO. 12th & Pine Street

 

They must have manufactured them until war material needs discontinued them. I bet WW1 scrap drives took a bunch of them out of action. 

[Jay Carter]

Russ, many of my USA brochures and literature from the WW1 period don’t seem to reflect as much of ‘commercial product’ drain as the HUGE impact that strategic resource drives took in latter WW2 and even Korean War eras (example chrome in 1951-1952) Those electrical items in early 20th century were relatively expensive and thus higher-tech. There was enough worn brass beds and dented spittoons for a 1917 war material drive. What I think happened was a consumer technological explosion from 1917 onwards that made the 1920’s roar. Mega-Displacement of tech.
Young experimenters suddenly wanted more radio, more telephones, not wired telegraphs , and folks who were called ‘electricians’ were becoming electrical engineers. 1916 onwards homes across America were getting the outhouse away from the backyard and inside of the house. Knob and tube wiring was more-and-more taking the place of iron pipe city gas home lighting. Preserved food was a critical war material and that tech grew exponentially. 

The personal dynamo is an example of rapid change. 50psi is a high pressure to work with on early 1900’s municipal cast iron piping (winter was brutal for breakage, latter ductile iron pipes were  better) and municipal water supplies who used to come from gravity offloaded water towers and elevated reservoirs were becoming forced pumped to consumers by numerous electric pumps and most importantly ,the municipal water was becoming ‘metered’ and therefore-not so cheap anymore to run your own dynamo from home. That style dynamo was becoming increasingly off-the grid. Perhaps you fan collectors can see what happens to the market for battery operated fans in that WW1 and immediately post period?

Just my opinion, as I worked as a consultant to some electric utilities when I was younger and was lucky enough to see remains of the steam era and transitions to the 21st century.
 

[Russ Huber]

Carlisle & Finch train manufacture ceased in 16. With that you can about count the dynamos that ran them or charged batteries went out the window as well. Their search light business maintained if not flourished, I'm sure.

[Jay Carter]

Russ, I have a Knapp dynamo on the bench now that I am restoring for a demo motor-generator. Knapp (the brand is shown along with some K&D  (Kendrick &Davis) small motors in your pic above). Knapp made a hand crank version similar in time frame and purpose for their toy and model trains. Knapp stayed in business well into the 1930s and was absorbed by PR. Mallory who can be argued has evolved into Duracell batteries today.

K&D continued and focused on jewelers and watchmakers tools and became Mag Motor Technologies today.  http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=5097 

The tungar bulb sure made charging batteries easier.

Tech displacement and evolution during and after WW1.

As a kid we messed with old crank telephone dynamos, and were especially thrilled with WW2 mil-surp field hand crank generators for shocking each other, and getting night crawler worms from the ground. I would not relish trying to hand crank power to run a toy train around and around a track. If early Ives or Lionel had a toy with a transformer to turn up the juice versus cranking till exhaustion, then I think that could have been a driving force to avoid hand-cranked power for toy trains. Unless the parents wanted a kid with arms like Popeye.

Pic circa 1911 Knapp hand crank dynamo motor.

 

 

[Russ Huber]

Uncle Sam orders trains out.....WW1 US Navy searchlights in.  No trains, no dynamos.

 

Carlisle & Finch Trains (tcawestern.org)

 

At the height of train production, Carlisle & Finch employed about 120 workers. Carlisle & Finch issued its first catalogue depicting trains in 1898, and its final catalogue for trains was created in 1915. 1916 catalogues were re-issues of the 1915 catalogues. At the beginning of World War I, the United States Government ordered Carlisle and Finch to cease toy train production in order to concentrate on producing searchlights for the U.S. Navy and United States Coast Guard. At the end of the war, the company did not resume toy train production, choosing instead to concentrate on its profitable searchlight business. Within a decade, it was the largest producer of military searchlights in the country.

[Russ Huber]

"At the height of train production, Carlisle & Finch employed about 120 workers. Carlisle & Finch issued its first catalogue depicting trains in 1898, and its final catalogue for trains was created in 1915. 1916 catalogues were re-issues of the 1915 catalogues. At the beginning of World War I, the United States Government ordered Carlisle and Finch to cease toy train production in order to concentrate on producing searchlights for the U.S. Navy and United States Coast Guard. At the end of the war, the company did not resume toy train production, choosing instead to concentrate on its profitable searchlight business. Within a decade, it was the largest producer of military searchlights in the country."

 

"Carlisle & Finch issued its first catalogue depicting trains in 1898"

They offered a catalogue with their electric trains as early as 97. 

[Steve Rockwell]

   "With regard to C&F, the company began in July of 1893 and was originally a repair shop for electric motors. Morton Carlisle and Robert S. Finch purchased it from General Electric and started operating on January 1, 1894 and C&F was incorporated in 1897 as a manufacturing company. The early job orders were for fixing electrical motors for GE and other customers. But in 1896 they decided to try making a product, an electric novelty - a small number one trolley. The first 500 were built by September 15, 1896. There is a tremendous debate about these early trolleys among collectors as advertisements showed them running on three rail track yet we have never found one that does. They made a second separate run of 1000 of these trolleys in the holiday season of 1896. I speculate that they must have shown promise in the holiday season of 1896 since they made a second run. This second group appears to have run on two rails rather than three. Most of the trolleys were made out of brass and had roofs that were painted black. All of these early trolleys are made with large paper labels that were glued on the entire side and ends of the trolley. Sometimes the windows were cut out and sometimes they were covered over in this version.

   Another variant of the number one trolley had smaller labels that had block lettering and then there was the familiar version with the small labels “Electric Railway” on each side These early trolleys had two pole motors and no reversing unit. Another group of these number one trolleys (3000 or so) were made in the Spring of 1897 which indicates it was very successful as an entry piece for C&F."

http://www.tinplatetimes.com/Tinplate%20History/C&F/cfhistory.htm

[Jay Carter]

Carlisle and Finch made battery operated toy trains. Cranking a dynamo to run a toy train was crude and tiring (imagine cranking a dynamo to run a fan) other brand trains had options of modern electric transformers and their sales were doing great. American manufactures did much better when Germanys Bing was shut out of the import market by WW1 !  American Flyer even began making USA electric trains at height of war in 1918.

By 1915 dynamo cranked/powered toy trains were as out of date as a bag-phone is today. Carlisle and Finch were the distributers and marketers of Knapp toy trains that were also dynamo/battery driven. Knapp dropped their trains in 1913 and C&F would surely have seen the proverbial writing-on-the-wall.
In 1915 , when C&F allegedly dropped toy train production, the USA was not at war (US war began April 1917) . 
My point is C&F was wise, or had the foresight of Nostradamus, to drop crude toy battery trains in 1915 and go all in on the maritime lighting.

Look carefully at Louis’s dynamo. Today its classic, valuable, and desirable. But in 1915 that style was old and reminiscent of 1895 motors and dynamos. 

Since this is an antique fan forum, I ask that perhaps you folks could reflect on the changes WW1 made on fan design and sales. Were dry and wet-cell fans getting more popular? My meager early DC 1920’s DW Knapp Sedan Fans were a boon to automobile’s , but their desk or camping use seemed limited in adverting and promotion.

http://www.tcawestern.org/bing.htm (i have a pre-WW1 Bing set and horizontal steam engine)

http://www.tcawestern.org/knapp.htm (note; there is a prime error in this article in that the company was founded in 1890, not 1895)

Well , I have belabored this topic enough and do thank all those who have engaged in it.  Much food for thought …and has induced me to get to work restoring some dynamos!

[Louis Luu]

The prototype plastic gears arrived today...to check for fit.  I'm really surprise it actually works.  I will print in steel and fabricate the mounting bracket that goes on top of the dynamo.

 

I also drew some replacement parts for my water pump and water motor.  The water motor had a lead casting which was badly worn and heavy as heck.  I made one of of nylon plastic.  It will be inside the motor so can't see it anyway.  Easier for the water to push.

 

[Louis Luu]

Dynamo gear holder.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Louis Luu

[Louis Luu]